S2 Ep6: Garry Embleton — Risk, Resilience & Building Ausfine

[00:00:00] So really the entire concept of getting involved was around that, when the inevitable happens, we don't yet know what it will be and we don't know who we're going to need to know, but if we're not at the table with these things, we won't have that opportunity. So I started getting involved with AIBC initially, or took on the Victorian Chapter Chair five years ago and then established a food and ag interest group within it as well,

[00:00:28] and then took on the National Presidency in October. I'm Matt Cooper and this is Bite Sides. Welcome to our latest edition of the Ausfine Bite Sides podcast. Great guest in today. Last few guests have been external to Ausfine. This time we are looking inward, an internal conversation today

[00:00:58] with a person who I have shared a lot of my journey with at Ausfine. We both have many battle scars and those scars are shared, and a person who I trust implicitly because of the strength of character that he's shown across those years.

[00:01:21] And anytime we have gone through challenging times, I've looked to my left and there has been this person standing right next to me and never wavered. And something I hold very deeply and love eternally. And that guest is the head of our risk and compliance, Mr. Gary Embleton. Gary, welcome to Bite Sides podcast. Thanks, Matt. Pleasure to be here. Great to have you here, mate.

[00:01:48] It's what I've discovered across a lot of these conversations is that everyone has got a really interesting tale to tell. And even for those people who I know really well, quite often those conversations are really surprising and we unearthed a whole bunch of stuff I didn't know. So it's a great forum and format to actually learn a bit more about the person who I think I know, but potentially I don't know everything there is to know about them.

[00:02:15] So the format that I've been running with has been that we go all the way back to the beginning and ask you about your background and how in the most condensed version possible you end up being here today, but all the way back to your early days in the workforce. Sure. Well, great to be here with you, Matt. And as you say, we have shared a journey.

[00:02:40] Workforce, well, even I guess before that, grew up kind of working class Melbourne. I think we've talked pretty similar backgrounds, both our fathers are in trucking and so on and probably grew up in an era of parents being aspirational for their kids and wanting them to do a little better, good education opportunities and so on.

[00:03:04] So grew up in Wheelers Hill, walking distance to the old VFL Park and in that area, in an area you spend a bit of time down Jells Park with your girls and netball now. To this day, guys. Down the hill there. Yeah, yeah. Developed some strong thighs on the bike. It was always riding up to anywhere around there. Exactly.

[00:03:27] Went through Corp Hill Grammar for my senior schooling, which again, eternally grateful to my parents for doing a lot of sacrifices back then to get me through Corp Hill Grammar. Finished that and at that stage I was going to be the world's greatest accountant, believe it or not. I believe not.

[00:03:51] Yeah, went off and did first year of an accounting degree, probably typical of a lot of my educational experience. I'd probably cruised through it a bit too easy and reasonable marks came easy so I didn't strive too hard for great marks. So finished up doing that down at what is now the Monash campus at Frankston. Potentially, yeah. Yep, bit of a hike to get there every day and didn't really love it.

[00:04:17] So after a year, I was sort of a little bit lost and actually, you know, this won't be complete without mentioning what's been my life partner. Tracy, we've been together since we were teenagers and I remember sitting down with her on the eve of going back for second year uni and saying, you know, you're not loving this. There might be other things to do. And fortunately at that stage, you didn't really need a degree to go out and get a job.

[00:04:46] So I deferred the uni course and set about applying for jobs as an accounts clerk. That's kind of what I knew. I'd set up accounting system for my mother's small business at the time. She was a florist and her accounts were all over the place. So I'd done a bit of that. And that was, what, 1989, March of 1989. And at that stage, jobs were plentiful. In four days, I'd been offered three or four jobs.

[00:05:14] And for no particular reason, picked a job as an accounts clerk for a company called Lavery International, which set me on a lifetime journey. 1989, that's your first entry into the world of dairy trading. Yeah. I assume Monash, Frankston have still got that position open, waiting for you to come back to complete your accounting decree. Absolutely. Absolutely, yes. Set your note every year. Are you coming back, Gary? Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, no. No, no. Take us back.

[00:05:43] So were Lavery's one of the ones in, was it Flinders Lane that they were? Oh, no. A lot of the dairy trading companies were lavery. When I started, it was all about St. Kilda Road back then. But yeah, in prior and for the history, they were, I think, one of the two or three oldest dairy trading companies in the country. Yeah. Yeah, I've got a bit of a history of Peter Lavery's grandfather once had a desk in what's now the men's room at the Inflation Nightclub, I think.

[00:06:13] Tells a bit of a story around that. But at that stage, I turned up from the first day of work, 1st of March 1989, and being punctual as I am, I was there quite early and waiting for the office to be unlocked. And this tall, distinguished-looking gentleman walks into the lobby of the building and says, oh, can I help you? He says, I'm here to start work at Lavery International. He says, I'm Peter Lavery. Nice to meet you. And lets me up.

[00:06:42] So I did accounts work there really for about nine months. And at that stage, they had an opening through a serious illness of one of their longstanding traders. He was not doing well with cancer at the time. And they kind of said, well, why don't we teach you how to trade? And they started out, why don't you go and trade some whey powder? You can't do much harm in that sort of thing. Oh, famous last words? Well, yeah.

[00:07:10] At that stage, I think whey powder was trading for about $150 a tonne. So it was pretty low risk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Yeah. So just on that, can you expand on the role of the dairy trade crew and how they then worked in with the Australian Dairy Board? How did that all work? Yeah, I probably come in and it started deregulating somewhat at that stage.

[00:07:37] But you still had what you would loosely call a subsidy scheme in place. It was an industry funded. It wasn't government funded. It was an industry funded export equalisation scheme. So there was a levy on all of the milk paid. And so then when you exported a product, you would get some rebate against the exported product. So that was still managed by the Australian Dairy Corporation as it was then.

[00:08:05] So it had changed from the Dairy Board to the Dairy Corporation. But Lavery's at that stage and really the main business was that they were the kings of export cheese from Australia to the US. Yes. Which is the polar opposite to air business today. Yes, exactly. So even when, interesting, you make that point and you can expand on this.

[00:08:29] But when the recent US-Australia FTA was drawn up, that was very much seen as a risk by the American dairy industry that they were going to get flooded with Australian product, right? Yeah. And look, I was, well, not personally, but Peter Lavery was at the forefront of that. He was the head negotiator for the Australian dairy industry on that US FTA. Back then and still now, it was all written because at that stage there had only been northbound trade.

[00:08:57] It was Australian cheese and other dairy ingredients going from Australia to the US. The US industry was entirely uncompetitive globally at that point in time. Yep. Every now and then they exported surpluses when they built it up and a big government subsidy would come in usually in the form of an aid program along the way.

[00:09:18] So the FTA was entirely written around and it was an extension of already, you know, other the Uruguay round of the GATT talks and so on goes back a very long way around safeguarding how much Australian dairy would go into the US. Yes. At that stage, and, you know, to talk about a couple of dinosaurs of the industry, you know, the big players in the Australian industry was Murray Goldman and Bonlac at that point in time.

[00:09:46] Neither of us, neither still with us. I'm still here. Yeah. Yeah, seen a few comings and goings. But, and in particular, a lot of it, so we did some really specialist hard grating type cheeses that went in there. The, what was then the old Kiwa factory for Murray Goldman did a huge amount of that. And the provisions of the FTA were quite specific around the types of cheeses that would go in there.

[00:10:14] So that was all, you know, Peter was really at the forefront of that. And ultimately led to, to the ending of, of labories. And by the time that business was sold in, it was only a year or so after the free trade agreement. And that was typical of the trader at that stage where the guys at Murray Goldman said, thanks for doing all that hard work. You've done a great job for us.

[00:10:41] But, you know, you won't earn any more out of it than you already were. But, and the access was massively higher. So, and by that stage, you know, I'd gone from the office boy. I'd had a stint away at United Milk Tasmania for a couple of years and came back and I'd started accumulating shareholding in labories. So 2005, 30th of June, 2005, my youngest son, Xavier, who's behind the mic or behind the panel at the moment. Salute to Zav. Was, was born 10 days earlier than that. So. It was all happening.

[00:11:11] It was all happening in my life. Yeah. He, the transaction completed for Murray Goldman to buy Lavery International. Yeah. And at that stage, I'd built up to a 15% shareholding in the business. But it was really about saying, well, we'll take it from here, guys. Yeah. But really within a year or two of that, the Australian trade to the US was almost dead. Certainly on a dying trajectory. So interesting. That's exactly right.

[00:11:38] So, and it's all, it's all best intentions kind of, kind of things when these documents are written and these massive assumptions made. But it's just interesting. Some of the names and the, and the assumptions that you just, just listed are now no longer valid or no longer with us in particular. Obviously, the US to Australia bound trade dwarfs anything that was imagined back when the FTA was written. Yep. And Murray Goldman, no longer with us.

[00:12:07] Lavery's obviously, was sold and swallowed up by MG prior. And then Bonlac also gone. So, you've seen a hell of a lot of change in the dairy industry in Australia. Also, I assume it, you know, going back three or four years before that, we were at peak milk as well. And very much a big player internationally on the export front, which you were, you know, you were at the front row seat for. And that's all changed now as well. Yeah. You can even go back a touch further. So, late 94 through to 96, I spent a couple of years down in Tasmania.

[00:12:38] One of the export managers for what was in United Milk Tasmania. Shortly after I left there, they sold out to Bonlac. Now, the classic on that was that the Tasmanian farmers at the time really wanted the Victorian milk price. And it was a real lesson in be careful what you wish for because ultimately they sold out to Bonlac.

[00:13:02] And the main difference on the milk price was the freight difference between, you know, shipping out of Melbourne or out of Tasmania. One of the most expensive pieces of water in the world. So, yeah, they sold out to Bonlac. Well, they got the Victorian milk price, but it was the Bonlac milk price. And it was only a couple of years after that that Bonlac went bust on the back of poor currency practice, mostly. Yeah. And got it entirely wrong on a currency play.

[00:13:30] And that's when Fonterra came in and took over the Bonlac assets for cents in the dollar. And, you know, one of the failings of Murray Goldman at the time, and you would be aware there's a lot of consolidation through. Murray Goldman were always at the table talking about whatever asset was for sale. And they were always the underbidder. Yeah. Classic. You go to a charity auction, it's great to be the underbidder. You seem to be engaged being out there. I got my hand up. Yeah. Murray Goldman's hand. I hope someone else puts a hand up.

[00:14:00] That's the one. Murray Goldman's hand was always up and always, you know, missed out. You know, and largely they, I think their attitude at the time was why should we pay for something that, you know, it'll go bust and we'll get it for nothing type of situation. But, yeah, so Bonlac was the first of those big dominoes to fall. From memory serves, probably the late 90s, 98, thereabouts.

[00:14:22] But really an indication, and I won't talk about names, but victim of a high-profile CEO who thought he knew better than the rest of the industry. Yep. There seems to be a theme of that through various players in our industry, that is for sure, which brings us nicely into that risk component of the world we inhabit. But we'll get there in a second.

[00:14:48] But do you want to just finish your journey to Oz Fine and then we'll touch on that risk compliance? For sure. Yeah, and look, at that time of getting out, I probably didn't see a great future for a trader in the dairy industry. And, you know, it was probably, certainly you're always coloured by your experiences at that stage. Had three years dried fruit, looking after the exports of Sunbeam Foods. Yep. Then a year with Mitsui.

[00:15:18] Japanese trader. Japanese trader. Very Japanese. Very Japanese. Great people. Longest year of my life. And then as things often happen in our industry, got invited to a race day, which happened to be bumping into the big Chris Scarlet at a race day at Flemington. Many a story starts that way. Many a story starts that way. And, you know, of course, by the end of the day we were blowing a fair bit of sunshine to each other and whatever.

[00:15:47] And, you know, next minute we're in serious talks about what my next career move would look like. So I guess technically I think I started with Ausfine 12th of January in 2010. Yes. In Cheltenham. Or thereabout. In Cheltenham. Yeah, yes. Cheltenham office. And, you know, testament to the change, I was number seven on staff then. Yep. And, you know, there's a desk over there and there's a chair in a box. Go and set your chair up and… Task number one. Put your desk together in a chair.

[00:16:18] Exactly. But I think, you know, in terms of rounding it out, you know, that whole what was there. And I give massive credit to, you know, Chris and his vision on seeing very early that the US was going to become a player the other way. And I think at a time where, as you say, we're in the massive drought here in Australia, but globally the US started growing. And it was going to be another five or ten year journey before that really came to fruition.

[00:16:45] But Chris's foresight on that can't be underestimated on getting involved with it. Absolutely. Real cornerstone piece of foresight in our business, that is for sure, to see what was possible and see around that corner of the way the world was playing out. Obviously, global pricing rocketed through expected levels with the entry of China buying in particular and brought the US well and truly into the international game of being, like to your point before,

[00:17:13] prior being very uncompetitive to being very, very competitive. So, yeah, I agree. And then your journey through Ausvine, you've played many a role here. You've worn many, many different hats. But where you arrive now is head of risk and compliance, which is a hell of a job because of the nature and the varied risk that we encounter every day.

[00:17:38] Do you want to just give us a summary of some of the risks that we face on a daily basis and then how difficult it is to mitigate some of those? Yeah. And it probably does go back to part of that, you know, those first conversations with Chris where, you know, Lavery's had been run as a very well-structured company. It was not big. You know, it was only a dozen people or so. But everything was very, you know, strictly structured.

[00:18:04] I was taught how to do costings in a particular way and, you know, the risk management and everything about it was, I think, you know, at that point in time, Ausvine was, you know, very much a partnership type of a business. And Chris said, well, if we're going to grow this, we've got to run things, you know, a little tighter. And so one of the, you know, part of those early conversations was not, you know, what can I bring to the table as a trader and trade contacts? That was an important part of it.

[00:18:30] But also what can I bring to the table in terms of just, you know, an overall business management and understanding of what's important to a trading business to make it tick? And I don't profess to be, and I'm not going to be running BHP or anything like that anytime soon, but I've got a pretty good understanding of what makes a trading business tick. Yes. Having a grown-up in the room was good, which was very much part of your role. I agree.

[00:18:57] We can be a little scattered in our approach, but Christoph and myself. So having someone there with a stronger guiding hand of what the risks are that we were taking or considering anyway was great. But if you look at some of the risks that we face, currency, geopolitical, weather. Yep. Credit risk, marine insurance, you know, you name it. And, you know, certainly an approach that we've brought to the table as we've grown is,

[00:19:26] you know, whatever risk can be defrayed off with insurance, you should try and do that. And, you know, to a degree, I think our learning is the more you do it, you know, the biggest, the greatest spread of risk you can give an insurance company, the lower your premiums become as well. And I think the best example of that is the way we handle credit insurance here. And we've got a great partnership with Atradius. That's been going now for around about 10 years or so with Atradius.

[00:19:55] And by their own admission, they've written us the most robust policy that they've written for anyone in Australia. And it's wide ranging, but we get fantastically affordable rates on it because we spread the risk really wide and have a robust approach to it. But also, I've always taken the approach, whether it be them or our marine insurers, that in the event of a problem and a claim, I work with them really closely to make sure that their losses are minimised.

[00:20:23] You know, it's an approach that says whether it's our money or their money, we've got to make sure that we get the best outcome possible on this. And we work real hard to make sure that claims are handled in a really professional way and minimise the loss, whoever's paying for it. It's a really interesting insight and very much a testament to the way you approach our business partners. I think that particularly our professional business partners, you know, our banks and

[00:20:51] insurers being top of the list there is that collaborative nature of the relationship, I think in other businesses and some other people's approaches to those kinds of relationships could be quite combative. And then us and their mentality and we win in the case of an insurance event, we don't really care what happens to the insurance company. Well, they've got their own pressures and needs as well. So I think that that approach is generally the right approach because then you can, as if

[00:21:21] things go a little sideways, you can kind of work through it together as opposed to being combative. Yeah, absolutely. And we've got, we've had a couple of instances where if they wanted to go with the absolute letter of policies and so on, they could have skipped out and left as high and dry on some things. But because of the approach that we bring in, you know, they see how we're working with them, you know, you get a bit better run on in a claim situation.

[00:21:51] The grey area can fall your way against and not against you if you handle those things well with them. Yeah, for sure. And clear communication is always key, right? And I'd say that extends to, you know, our great banking partners we've had for a long, long time, HSBC and the collaborative approach you've always taken with those guys as well. Yeah, and sharing of information, and I think it's a trait of us fine whether it's in our trading or whatever, but, you know, we're kind of radically transparent in a lot of what we do.

[00:22:21] So I guess I've developed a good understanding over time as it applies to the banking of, you know, what's important to them. And it goes back even, you know, I'll dinosaur myself here a little bit. When I first started trading, we were using a telex machine. And telex as a form of communication was pretty bloody expensive, but it was all we had. And I was taught very early, you know, the economy of words but the thoroughness of words,

[00:22:49] you know, how to use them well, you know, avoid misunderstanding, ambiguity, et cetera. So being clear on what your message is, especially when we're dealing in different time zones and so on, if your message was wrong on day one, you could be still trying to sort it out on day 10 and you're missing opportunities. So clarity of communication is really important. And that's, you know, then feeds into, you know, whether it be banking or insurance and so on is understanding what's important to the other side.

[00:23:18] You know, when I'm giving my message, can I answer their questions up front? And the more you can do that, the more confidence they've got in you that you've got it covered. Yeah, that you know your business and you know theirs. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Which leads us into an area that I really wanted to chat to you about today and bring anyone who's listening or watching into the tent a little bit. And it is about risk, but it's also about those partnerships as we kind of roll out across the world.

[00:23:48] And that's the establishment of a couple of different goes at international offices that we've had. Yep. Some have been fantastic and worked well and others have been a little misfire in their nature. Yeah. You've been at the pointy end of a lot of those expansions, whether by design or by fault. By help. Run us through the, just at a high level, our experiences in trying to open up international

[00:24:16] offices and what you think have been some of the great things that have come out of them, some of the learnings. Yeah, obviously the first one was Philippines. And fortunately, I think that was started about two weeks before I started with Ausfine. So... Are you not claiming that? No, I'm not claiming that. But it was a great learning journey and I think it was first toe in the water. And if you consider at that stage, Ausfine was barely half a dozen people and all of a

[00:24:46] sudden starting up trying out an international office. And a classic suck it and see type of situation, but fell victim to probably the progress of the business being well ahead of the business structure. And ultimately, one of the great things we do here is learn from the mistakes and we've made plenty. So a lot of learnings there. There's a lot to learn from. A lot to learn from. Learning. Learning. Exactly.

[00:25:10] But, you know, and so then I guess I was at the forefront of opening the Indonesia office in 2015. So we had five years worth of learnings and scars and some pretty dumb moves along the way. Sure. So ultimately, bringing it back to you have to get the structure, the legal structure, all of your paperwork in place before you do anything. And that was what we got wrong with the Philippines was getting well ahead of ourselves on the kind of business we were doing.

[00:25:41] Once you got on the wrong side of authorities, you were never going to get back on the right side in a place like the Philippines and probably in about 95% of the world in all honesty. So, you know, we got on the radar of, you know, the import authorities there and the tax authorities for all the wrong reasons and, you know, not through dishonesty but, you know, just through lack of knowing in a sense, right?

[00:26:06] And so we addressed that and, you know, with Indonesia we started that journey and it was pretty much a four-year process to get the business registered and all the pieces of paper in place which, you know, and I remember some pretty good conversations with Chris at the time. Why can't we just do this? We're not doing it yet. Go and do something else, Chris. We've got to do this. I somehow recall those conversations, yes.

[00:26:32] But, you know, I guess and, you know, we had a few ups and downs there as well but with, you know, the sleep easy of we've got right on our side. We've done it right. We, you know, we're happy to pay reasonable taxes in the country. You know, we've said that from the outset that we'll earn our profits and we'll pay our taxes and we get that right. And, you know, in the event of a dispute, you know, you should be able to rely on that and come out of it the other side.

[00:27:00] And, yes, experience this week has shown that to be true. We see it through and, like you say, if you've got right on your side, good things should happen and that has been the case over recent times which has been great. Would you say, obviously, we pick our mark and, you know, trying to set up wholly owned subsidiary offices in second world countries has its challenges.

[00:27:27] We've recently opened up the US office which we would consider to be a first world country, very friendly to business set up. Have you seen any similarities, I guess? Or, you know, what are the great things about setting up in a first world country as opposed to the challenges around second world? But do you see any kind of parallels between the two? Oh, for sure. I think, you know, it's a classic and you use the phrase a lot, you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. Right.

[00:27:52] And, you know, I guess you could feel very complacent about going in the US because, you know, every night we're watching something about, you know, the US on television, you know, whether it be a crime show or a lawyer's show or whatever, you think you know it. But what you see there is the US is 50 states. It's actually probably a lot less federated in a regulatory sense than what Australia is.

[00:28:21] So every state you go in, you're encountering different rules and regulations. You know, we're finding it. We've got, you know, one of our staff there is in Pennsylvania. Others are in Colorado. And, you know, the taxation laws, the labour laws, the hiring and firing rules are different everywhere you go. So, you know, we're trying to do a lot more hiring than firing, of course.

[00:28:47] But, you know, different applications in different areas is a challenge. You know, Kylie's HR lady is doing a fantastic job at keeping across a fair bit of that. So, yeah, there's a real learning journey to it. But even as it applies, you know, back to Indonesia, I think it's worth touching on what our strategy was in going in there. And at the time, you know, it was all about the China boom.

[00:29:16] Everyone in Australia was piling into China. Piling over Indonesia. Yeah. And as, you know, we talked about it at that time that, well, everyone's piling into China. You know, there's this country to our immediate north with, you know, close to 300 million people. And, you know, the same stories of emerging middle class and so on. And, you know, a market that, you know, petrifies a lot of people. You know, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes not. So, but, you know, our business model does work with a bit of chaos. And that fitted the bill.

[00:29:45] And, of course, can't go without mentioning Mayling, our country manager there. She's been with us from day one. And if I was fine about people, that's it right there. Yeah. 100% agree. She's an amazing person. And we love dearly and couldn't have done any of it without her. Getting back to the U.S., just really quickly, it's just interesting you make that comment because in many respects, it is like 50 different countries. Yeah. And dealing with different jurisdictions and even within the one jurisdiction, different departments.

[00:30:15] And it's very confusing to an Australian. It is. Everyone talks there around, you know, for a lot of them, they consider, you know, sending product two states away to be an export transaction just about. Well, yeah. And it's not so far from the truth in the sense you've got to go across different jurisdictions who want to cut out the taxation and whatnot. Navigating your way through that can be pretty complex. Yeah. Again, I'm kind of jumping across the Pacific here, but coming back to Indonesia and the

[00:30:44] other thing that you've done fantastically well is that engagement with the different industry bodies as well. And you've, you know, I think El Presidente, is that right? Of the AIBC. That's right. Maybe just touch on that for a couple of minutes. Yeah. Again, when we started and it was part of that Philippine learning was understanding that at some point in time, you know, having a business here, we're going to have a problem. And my thought process at the time, I went to an AIBC conference, Australia-Indonesia Business

[00:31:11] Council conference, early at the invitation of the guys, our lawyer up there in Indonesia, who said, come along and have a bit of a look. And really recognised at that point in time that we're going to have a problem at some stage. We don't know what the problem is going to be. We don't know who we're going to need to know, but we're going to need to know someone. And so really the entire concept of getting involved was around that, you know, when the inevitable happens, we don't yet know what it'll be and we don't know who we're going to need to know.

[00:31:41] But we won't, if we're not at the table with these things, we won't have that opportunity. So I started getting involved with AIBC initially, or took on the Victorian chapter chair five years ago and then established a food and ag interest group within it as well. And then took on the national presidency in October last year. So, you know, it's got Oswein's name out there really well, but, you know, through some of

[00:32:09] the inevitables that we thought about, established a great range of contacts, you know, some people we can call on and for a bit of help, but also being able to, you know, bounce off, you know, we're having this problem, how would you handle it and that kind of thing. It's a real forum for exchanging ideas. And I've come into contact with some pretty impressive and amazing people through that as well. Yeah, it is a great point you make.

[00:32:33] And I think also it's a case of giving back a little bit to the industry and to the bilateral trade friendship between Australia and Indonesia. But also I think it's a sign of respect of the way the Indonesian industry works. Sometimes we can be a little arrogant in the West in the sense of this is the way it works here. That's the way it should work everywhere.

[00:32:58] And if you don't do it that way, then, you know, you really are a second or third world country. Whereas I think by joining those kind of organisations, it's a sign of respect of the way things do work in these countries as well. It is. And it's also seeing, you know, it's a bilateral relationship and without sounding too off, I've actually just come from a meeting with the Indonesian ambassador this morning and talking

[00:33:25] around some of the treatment that Australian companies are getting in Indonesia. But equally, we're not saints on this as well. And he was telling me about, you know, one of the Indonesian mining companies that's won a court battle to get things started on a mine. They've done everything legally. They've got all of it right. But, you know, they're wrapped up in green tape. There's lobby groups and so on that, you know, there's just one more court. Okay. One more, one more, one more. So in Indonesia, we tend to get wrapped up in red tape.

[00:33:55] Well, you know, the Indonesian companies here are being wrapped up in a lot of green tape along the way as well. So it's... It cuts both ways. It does cut both ways. And we can't pretend to be the victim when, you know, we're not perfect ourselves. Yeah, 100%. No, great call. Believe it or not, we're actually well into this podcast and coming towards the end. But before we sign off, there is just... Love an overall bird's eye view of your time here at Ausfine Gaz.

[00:34:24] I'd say it's fair to say that it's been a roller coaster. We've had some great highs. It's also been some really challenging times. Yep. So your overall take since, what did you say, 2010? 2010, yeah. Yep. So 15 coming up to 16 or 16 coming up to 17 years. Your view of the journey of Ausfine since you've been here and some takeaways in general and then perhaps some leadership observations and takeaways that you've either had from the

[00:34:54] very beginning or you've learnt along the journey. Sure. Well, yeah, I guess, yeah, we went through that. But the early days and talk about transformation coming in and seeing Terry's green book was an interesting start. Cutting me out. Why don't you explain the green book? Well, the green book was where we recorded all our transactions and might have been in pencil, which made it liberal in its accuracy, shall we say. Yeah.

[00:35:20] So I guess, you know, look, I've done a lot of the hiring here over that time, including our first financial controller. You know, the first time we had an accountant on staff and, you know, with respect to our current finance team, I've lost count how many there are there now. There's a few. All great people, of course. Of course. Doing very important functions in the business. We don't know what they are.

[00:35:42] But, you know, hiring our first financial controller, you know, building out the operations team and a lot of that, you know, through times of realising too late that we need more. And I think that's been a big part of the journey and, you know, a lot of it, you know, we went through the Chisholm years, you know, all of a sudden, well, there's some money to play with. Oh, gee, we made a mistake there. Oops.

[00:36:11] You know, a few overly ambitious moves along the way. But, you know, bringing it back to, you know, to some strong learnings at the end of it. And, you know, obviously a transformation. You know, Chris went on a discovery pathway and a learning pathway. And he's, you know, really imparted that across the business. You know, thinking about, you know, establishing values in the place. It was something that that was always for others. You know, that's for big companies. That's not us.

[00:36:39] But, you know, today we talk about the values, you know, on a daily basis. And, you know, I remember the pretty painstaking journey that we took on, you know, wordsmithing that out. And, you know, what started out as, you know, perhaps a box-ticking exercise became something that we all became pretty passionate about. That these values do represent what's important to us as business owners. And the way that we want to treat our staff and grow the business as well. Agreed.

[00:37:09] On all that, yes. And, yeah, I'll reiterate, it has been a rollercoaster. You know, there have been challenges. But, you know what, there's been some bloody good times as well. Yep. Across those 16 years. So, yeah, a deep thank you to you as I go round back to my opening remarks. You have always been there. And a sign of a person is how they turn up when the chips are down. And you always turned up, which I really, really appreciate. So, also appreciate your time today.

[00:37:38] And thanks for your time on the Ausfine Bitesides podcast. Always a pleasure, Matt. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Thanks, guys.